Ep 15 - What To Do with an Epic Poem?

This is the Digressio podcast, helping families inherit the humanities in their home. 

Welcome to Season 2, where we are, among some "Digressios," discussing Epic Poetry. 

I’m your host Daniel Foucachon, and I’m joined by our co-host Joe Carlson, translator of Dantes Divine comedy, and author of The Dante Curriculum.

The topic today is “What to do with an epic poem?” 

Transcript

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This is the Digressio Podcast. Helping families inherit the humanities in their home. Welcome to season two, where we are among some “digressios” discussing epic poetry. I'm your host, Daniel Foucachon, and I'm joined by our co-host, Joe Carlson. Translator of Dante's Divine Comedy and author of the Dante curriculum, the topic today is“what to do with an epic poem?” And the short answer is to read it. but I would like to read a, quote from your upcoming Reader's Guide to, Milton's Paradise Lost, which is, some of I think we mentioned it before, but that's a bit of an announcement. Yeah. and, and regained. Yes. Lost and Regained. that is very important. In our poetic illiteracy. We have forgotten that poetry is a language. And epic poetry is a specific dialect. The tools to relearn its grammar are readily available, and the examples of the masters are innumerable. And yet we persist in an almost determined ignorance. So why do you think that is, Joe? Well, first of all, why is poetry a language? Maybe, maybe start with that. Yeah. it's a different way of, coming at knowledge, for one thing. so languages, what languages do they. They allow us to communicate, together, regarding, events and truths. Things that we're feeling, things that we're seeing. language allows that kind of communication between, different people and those who have the same language are able to understand one another because they understand the same basic, grammar principles and vocab. and are able to, communicate together in that way. people of different languages can't understand one another, one another. I mean, go back to Genesis 11 and the tower of Babel, and there they have to stop working on the tower because they all speak a different language and they're no longer able to communicate. So when you speak a different language, you are cut off from a, a way of understanding the world, a way of understanding another person, because you're not able to communicate with them. Poetry is a language. now, it's it's using English words. English poetry is using English words and English syntax, but it's communicating in a different way than prose, for instance. Right. or a scientific, article, a journal article or, a restaurant menu or, you know, pick anything that you want. Right? that's not poetry. And ask yourself, how is this communicating to me? and how is this telling me something? What is it communicating? What is the form doing in it's communication? So the difference between a science journal article and a restaurant menu. you know, the form has a lot to do with it, right? what? It's what it's intending to communicate is largely, shaped by how it is communicated. Right? So poetry brings with it a whole host of forms, rules, constraints, that are, that are largely lost to us in, in our modern day, and and yet, like you said, it's, is the English language. I think that that is part of the, the, difficulty in people picking up the epic poetry is that they, they see it. I don't I think they don't see it as another language. They see it as their own language. And in their mind, it's not that what they expect, and therefore it doesn't communicate to them because they're they're expecting a certain form. Right? Right. I mean, even even with the, the, the poetry that we are familiar with, which would be all of the lyrics of the pop songs that surround us every day. Yeah. Right. That's those are our modern poets. right. Sadly. and it's it's trite language. It's trite feelings, largely. And, and so this is, this is our understanding of what poetry is or, you know, free verse where it's just personal expression. It's me in alone in my bedroom whining about life. Right. and so we've, the those who would, who want to be a little bit more, discerning in their, in what, the intake. dismiss that kind of poetry and rightfully so. but they don't replace it with, quality poetry. Excellent poetry. They think, okay, that's that's poetry. I've no time for that. Right. Let's move on to something that communicates. Right. So I, I think that the, the average person in our modern era will recognize the power of poetry through the bad influence of the our poets of our day. In other words, they they would say, our poets speak truth and lead. People are sorry. They speak lies and lead our children astray. Then it's history. Therefore, poetry is bad, right? but they throw the baby out with the bathwater, right? But they're not, I don't think that if if they're thinking about it in this way, I don't think they would dismiss the power. They would just say it's evil. Right. and then they encounter good poetry, and they. And they don't realize that it's it's the good version of what? Of the powerful. it's it's the antidote. Right? the good. It's magic versus saurons. Thank you. Exactly. the. So, where to counter, untruth often encountered through poetry. Right. The and the power of modern poetry and the power of that modern, bad poetry. I think that a lot of modern Christians, therefore, are looking for logic and a different form. I want to read another quote from your, your guide to kind of interact with that. you know, answering the question of why we don't value poetry, you say, why is it because we place a higher value on logical propositions as a mode of communicating truth? Is it because we are uneasy with the demands of beauty? Beauty requires training, intuition, and a comfort with symbol and illusion. Poetry does not define what is true. Rather, it invites you into an experience of the true. It does not tell. It shows. Right. And I think, I think going back to the first part of that quote, the the fact that we are perhaps more comfortable with, logical propositions, prose, systematic theologies write everything that comes in that world. we live in such a, in a time where, where truth is being, relative ized, everywhere around us. you know your truth, what you believe. And this postmodern world has completely destroyed the idea of objectivity, right? And truth like an objective, an objectively true thing. And so in reaction to that postmodern world, we are like, okay, let's let's skip the squishy stuff and let's get some two by fours here and, and build a, you know, a good house with a strong frame. Yeah. Right. well, let me just ask the question in response to that. Are the epic poems squishy and relative? teacher relative? True? Absolutely not. Right, man. No. And that's and that's what makes them so powerful. Right. but but saving that just for, for a moment. this this because of the, the world that we live in, the, the atmosphere, the postmodern atmosphere that we are all part of, we're we are leery of anything that is not two by four ish. Right? Right. truth puppet propositions. our, our our main fair because we, we want something solid. We want to know what we know, and we want to know what we believe in. We want to know that it is true. Right. and we want to draw straight lines back to, biblical verses and propositions and go, this is where I can hang my hat, and I can have assurance in my faith because I know that it is solid and it is, well founded. and that's great. Right? We we need those we need that kind of language. But even when we say biblical, for example, you're, you're you're referring to the absolute truth of Scripture. But if we're, reading Scripture, we're not encountering a long series of propositions. We have parables. There once was a man with two sons, you know, there's we're not in, even Scripture. We would be imitating scripture to, learn the language and power of poetry. A lot of Scripture is poetry, is story. Right? Yeah. It's it's two thirds roughly, story and poetry. you have the you have the epistles, and, and even in, even in the epistles, you have poetic language, you have metaphor and, and and things like that. So, yeah. So limiting our, restricting our own means, modes of communication to propositional language, does us a disservice. not because truth is unimportant, but because truth and beauty have to be seen as united as, you know, two sides of a three sided object, right? With goodness being the other side. I mean, this it is there all together. Truth is beauty. Beauty is goodness. Greatness is truth. And, and so to to untether ourselves from any sort of appreciation or valuation of beauty, restricts our understanding of the world, significantly and to the point where we're not able to actually offer a counter-narrative to the postmodern narrative that know truth. There is no truth. it's it's all squishy. It's all personal expression. It's all, what you feel. Your truth is your truth. we've we've we've got a right response with, objective truth and objective propositions that are true. You know, Jesus as Lord, Jesus as King. but we we need help in also understanding how to read this world that God has made, which is write a beautiful poem. and so we've got one leg of the stool, we've and, you know, maybe we can say we got a second leg with the, with the goodness factor that comes from an understanding of, of law and morality, through that proper propositional understanding of, of the word. But we don't have that third leg. Right. We're missing that third leg. And so we remain unbalanced. and so why is that important? What God made this world in a certain way. Right. And this goes back to that second quote. Yeah. That, how do we read the world? How do we understand who we are in this world? How do we understand the world that God has made, when the world itself is a living poem, words spoken, and arranged in a particular way to communicate something particular that can't be reduced to a proposition. Right? Right. You can't reduce a sunset to a proposition. Right? Right. It's an experience. And God has invited you into an experience. And that's that's where that's where the language of poetry really is. So going back to the opening quote, what we started with, you know, how do we learn the language of poetry? Why why is it a language? Why is it something we need to learn? Well, because we don't we don't live in a propositional world. We live in a world of beauty and of experience. Right. And so how do we understand the experiences that we have in this world, what we do that we train ourselves, we train our minds and train our imaginations to, to recognize and to see and understand our experiences by means of these small little worlds called poems. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And so learning the language of poetry, becoming literate in poetry allows us then to understand the grammar and the metaphor and the symbolism of the world that we live in. Yeah. You say in that second quote that I read, it is because we are uneasy with the demands of beauty. you know, the, thinking of it as, as the demands of beauty. We talk about the demands of propositional truth. You know, the demands of logic will often reduce things. We will demand and, we're comfortable with demanding truth derived from logic, but not from beauty. Well, it's because two plus two is four. That's easy to say. And it's easy to see. Once you understand it, you know it. It's not complicated. and the demands of logic two are like that mathematically, formulated and able to go, okay, this plus this equals that, right? This premise plus that premise equals this conclusion. I can I can handle that. Right. beauty isn't understood that way, right? You don't interact with beauty that way. Beauty is understood intuitively, experientially, which takes wisdom and discernment, to understand. And those are much harder than logic. Right. All right. Yeah. so there's that overcoming the barrier of there's that language. So we have a language of, propositional language. We can we, we know how to deal with that. We don't. We're uneasy, as you said, with that, with the demands of of, poetry. But that's because of that language barrier, because of that language barrier. And also because of the, the, the bad, the the bad mojo of the postmodern world that scared us from, scared us off from this idea of, of images, speaking and story speaking and narrative speaking. we think that's bad. And, you know, the postmodern version of that is bad, right? That doesn't mean that they're wrong about the fact that stories speak. Right? Right. So the first thing is to recognize that there is a language barrier, right. and when you pick up an epic poem and you've never read epic poetry before, it's, it's it's a different language. Right. and then to realize that it is valuable to acquire that language, it's not something to, dismiss along with the pop, poetry. Right. and in fact, it's it's the the only way to stand strong against the pop poetry, right? Right. Yeah. and so, how can we do that? You know, how do we learn the language of poetry? So by by reading it, seeing its importance. But, that and perhaps not just understanding it. Propositional, but, learning to love it. Right? learning to delight in it, learning to delight in the experience that poetry brings, right? To not just read a poem to analyze it. Yeah, right. But to to let it disciple your affections, right. To read it and go, okay, this this needs to have some impact on my soul. I should not just read this in order to be able to identify the rhyme scheme or the metric system or, the how the stanzas interact and be able to identify the elements. I mean, that would be like my, that'd be like saying my my knowledge is my knowledge of cats is complete by dissecting a dead one on a tape, right? Right. No. My knowledge of cats is complete. By picking one up and letting it scramble up my shoulders and jump off of me, because it doesn't want to be held right. That that's my experience with the cat is what's going to give me the knowledge of the cat. And so, and so with poetry and so with this kind of language is I need to I need to be immersed in it. Right. If you want to learn it, if you want to learn the language in your you know, you know, you're not a toddler anymore and you're not just simply imitating your parents. What's the best way to learn a language is immersion, right? Right. You go into a country, you drop yourself in and you live there for six months and you struggle through that. But you do. People do that because they want to learn and you value the the end goal that being fluent, in a particular language. So how do you do that with poetry? Yeah, I was gonna say, how do you how do you pick up? Okay. I was I was going to extend your analogy. Say, how do you pick up a poem and make it her. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. so if, if we want to get practical, you know, start small. Right. find the greats, that other people have recognized are great. you know, just don't just go by what you like. don't just go by by what tickles your fancy or, or sounds pretty in your ear. pick up a book that people have said this is fantastic poetry. And people from, several centuries and from several cultures have said, this is fantastic poetry. and start there and read it and learn to learn to see it, learn to understand it, learn. And maybe that means a master. Right? Right. And this is the other part of our postmodern world that that we've just kind of, blithely absorbed is the, the, the assumption that I can do this on my own. That I can be my own master. I mean, this is what the smart phones are telling us, right? You, you have Google at your fingertips and therefore you are your own arbiter of truth, right. You're your own arbiter of beauty because you have information, right? Exactly. And because you have all of this information at your fingertips, you are wise, right? Right. No, I think the response to that as well, we don't need you because I has all this information. So who needs humans. Exactly, exactly. And I think, you know, to to say that out loud, causes all of us to instinctually go, oh, no, that's not true. but how often do we just assume that to be the case? And so learning to learning a language, you do it because you love it, you want it, you desire it, and you find guides that you trust to help you in that. same with poetry. Find a guide. Find someone who's, who who has learned to love it themselves, who is fluent in that language, and go spend time with them. Right. Go. Go find someone for whom it is. It is akin to their mother tongue. Right? Right. yeah. So. So this type of learning, this type of language, just like it's difficult to learn a language just from a book. it's not that you can't learn things, but it is far more difficult. the there's, when it comes to the great books, you know, I have, I have talked to people, who have said, you know, I don't, I just need to read these. I they're convinced they've heard the propositional argument. these are the great books and ought to be read. And they they want to just kind of read it on their own. And and it's not that I would discourage someone from doing that, but they're going to there's going to be pitfalls. There's going to be real danger involved in doing it in isolation because there's there's a lot of, these there. You need a guide. There are pitfalls. There are there's heresy. There is, bad, bad things among the great things that but none of the my spired, the inspired word of God. Exactly. and so there is, there is some danger there. but also if if it's a language, if it's something you learn, the best way to learn it is to have that, love communicated just like you, a child learns from their parents and in a loving environment. Or if you drop yourself in a country, you go stay with the family that you develop affection for. Right? there's there's a, a human. It's not just, you know, the you learn the grammar and then you can speak. No one just learns the endings of, you know, memorized terms. And you have to put it together and in some kind of a context. And so there's, the, the it's very difficult. I want to acknowledge the difficult ness because we've missed a generation or two, the most natural way for someone to understand the language and the, the language of poetry and, to have, to get over that language barrier, right, is to have fluent parents. When you think about past cultures, you know, and obviously these are being these cultures are represented to us in the epic poems themselves. so maybe they're a little self-serving in that way, but this is historically true as well, that, you know, what was the what was the common mode of entertainment in past days? It was sitting around and listening to a bard recite, you know, large chunks of Homer, for so much of human history that so much all the way. And we still have our bards that are just right. Right. For the most part. Right. And they've been trivialized. Do they trivialize, the, the subjects that they, they discuss. But even up into the pioneer days in the late 1800s, you know, reading, little House on the Prairie series with, with our with with my seven year old boy and, you know, PA sitting around, or the, you know, the, the Ingram family sitting around the fireplace and pa opening up a book and and reading a story or even, even just closing his eyes and reciting a long poem. And, and the kids having the attention span to sit there and listen because they love their father. They are enjoying that family experience. It's uniting them in some way. There's, there's a section that's being shaped. Yeah. In that moment. And the kids are learning to love what the father loves. Right, right. This is discipleship, right? This is Christian discipleship. this is the Christian life. We're learning to love what our father loves. we've we've just limited, so often into our discredit. We've limited the scope of what we think the father loves to propositional truth. Right? But the father loves this world, right? The father loves imagery. The father loves metaphor. The father loves beauty. The father loves song. what's one word that describes all of that poetry, right, right. The father loves poetry. And and so, yes, as our own affections are being shaped as we live in this world, as we delight in the things that God delights in. one way, not the only way, but one way, one really important way to grow in our affection for our father is to grow in our affection for the things that he loves. And one of the ways to do that is to develop this poetic literacy that teaches us to read the world we're in. Right? So given that, gap, of families who, who don't have that kind of love there, I, the I would want to encourage people who are, seeing that gap to not be discouraged by the difficulty. Right. there is that initial regaining, you know, the, another analogy that I think is easier to, to grasp is if you go to, you know, the tribes that have been evangelized and they don't have even the written word at all. You know, we we've, you know, we've got oh, they don't have books. They don't have a language that's terrible. They need to do that. It's easy for us to say, yep, that first generation is going to have trouble. It'll be so much better for the kids. Yeah. I think we're in the same position. Yeah, we're we're going to say it is going to be more difficult. and that that difficulty is worth pursuing and not being discouraged and thinking, you know, that lack of initial understanding being, being a turnoff? I'm seeing some of the second generation, in our family, we have, my kids and their cousins, there's rivalries about, you know, what is the greatest epic. Yeah. And they have little debates and arguments about, you know, the Virgil versus Homer. Yeah. And all of that. And, you know, that wasn't propositional truth that made or arguments that created that. I didn't have to memorize something or that they heard us arguing about it. parents. And we hosted debate about, Hector versus Achilles. And so they they are learning to love these, these things. And it becomes part of their culture and language, which which brings up a really good practical point. don't read these in isolation, right? They don't go. Don't go. Shut yourself in your room and read this and go, okay, I can on my own figure this out. even if I have a dictionary. No, you need to read this in community. Get a book club going. Right? Right. Read out loud with your wife and your family and and don't expect this is the other thing. remain realistic and humble about this. Don't expect to gain mastery the first time through. Right? Right. just like, you're starting to learn a language later in life. You're not going to gain mastery the first time through. You go through a textbook, right? and a we are shaped as people as we do it. Right. Which also means that if we do it in isolation, where we're giving up the opportunity for fellowship in that process. the I'm, I've a particular, instance where there was a young man, unmarried, he had heard the propositional truth that the great books should be read. And so he wanted to read them, and he was insisting that he wanted to do them in isolation. I don't need the others. And I remember, it was it was at a conference. And so it wasn't a very long conversation, but I was like, well, I mean, I'm happy he'll read them, but I do not believe he will get through them, you know, not because he couldn't, it wasn't a matter of discipline. It was a matter of loves. Right? It was a matter of of of, the formation not working that way. And the other thing I just realized, though, is that, how, just the richness of the experience, I mean, that, the process of learning the value of of of, groups of schools, of mentors, of, you know, going to university or doing in high school or book clubs is, that's a great place to find the wife, honestly, you know, like, really, you know, relationships, read, read the epics. Exactly. you need other people for this human endeavor, to, for it to really flourish and not something to seek as information, but as, a true human growth. Right. And and there are masters out there, and so finding those masters, finding those people to come alongside, to look up, to devalue their knowledge, devalue their experience, to value their affections, you know, this this is how we grow, right? This is how we are discipled. Right? It's how we imitate, we grow by imitation, by imitating one another and imitating each other's lives. Right? Yeah. so, I want to read the, another quote from that. This kind of brings this in, a little bit from from your reader guide. Again, the forthcoming reader guide to the, Paradise Lost and Regained. Poetry and imaginative literature in general is embodied and visceral and gives definition to the landscapes of our imagination. And because the imagination is the primary faculty that perceives the world and intuitively identifies it, meaning our imaginative landscape becomes the place where we understand everything we experience. Poetic literacy, therefore equips us to read the poem where in the spoken poem this world is. Yeah, yeah. So, basically what that saying is, you know, you step outside or you don't even step out, just open your eyes and you're not living in the two by fours of a propositional truth world, or propositional claim world. You're living in the middle of a story, right? Yeah. Things are happening all over. you're in the middle of this grand novel. this grand poem, this grand story that God is speaking. and you have one little tiny bit part over, you know, stage left. and, and so to understand what you're doing, understand where you are, we need to understand the kind of kind of world that this is and this, you know, repeating ourselves a little bit here, but recognizing that this world has this kind of narrative structure. Yeah. that is that is spoken and arranged, by the master author, the master poet. and so how do we how do we learn to, to, to understand that it's, it's by shaping, the means that God has given us to understand the images that we see. That is the imagination, right? Yeah, we we look at it and this, this series, this this constant barrage of images, moving images is entering through our senses and landing in our imagination where we process all of this. and if, if all we're doing is filling our head with propositional knowledge, the, the landscape in which those images land, the landscape in which we process and understand, it's going to be very narrow and constricted. Right. If that if all we're filling our minds with is is propositional truth, that's important, right? I'm not discounting that or being dismissive of that. But if that's all we're doing, then we are we are constricting the the the range and the scope of our landscape, our imaginative landscapes, which allow us to, pass and to create relation between different activities and different images and different actions that we behold and, and participate in. So, what what do we do to expand that? Well, you read. The kind of thing that the world is. Yeah, right. Yeah. So we started with, you know, the question what to do with an epic poem. The actors read it and we kind of, talked about the barriers to that. I have a practical suggestion that, that that I think, for people who are encountering that difficulty, is that not having that second generation, when our students are reading the epics, they generally start with Homer. Chronological order. The old Western culture starts with Homer the first thing you read, but there's introduction and context and and a mastery, a master, a guide, in most cases. And it's being done either in a family context or in a co-op or a school. and so they start with Homer. if, if you're an adult and you're, you're that first generation playing catch up, I'd like to suggest you start on the other end and. Yeah, because, just to kind of walk through the epics here in that chronological order kind of points of the out. Homer is Greek. It's, it's and it's more foreign. There's more of that, eastern, culture. it's it's, less accessible when those barriers, those language barriers are, let's just say it's not just another language, but there's a there's a dialog, you know, there's a there's a, and a heavy accent. Yeah. and then you get to Virgil and already you're you're closer because Virgil is Roman, and, Americans are deeply one of my favorite subjects are deeply Roman. I think that the Virgil, deeply influenced in a way that that we, if pointed out, we will start seeing it everywhere. Yeah. The the American psyche, the American, imagination. and then we get to, to Dante and it's, you know, more medieval, but it's still getting closer to us. it's more it's Christian for what? It's Christian. Yeah. So that's another, get closing. good. proximity to us. Yeah. And then, we have, Milton is an Orthodox, Trinitarian Calvinist, so we're getting even closer. And in English and it's in our mother, we have an epic in our mother tongue. Right. but I actually want to go one step further and technically exit the, the poem at the epic poem, epic poetry will stay within the epic and say that if you want to enter this, and get an understanding of the of the feel of, of imaginative literature, to prepare you for imaginative literature at the epic level, it's exactly imaginative literature at the epic level that shapes a world that is, that is, going to give you a real taste of what we mean when we say imaginative literature in its power. And that would be the Lord of the rings. Absolutely. so if by and that is something including Hobbit, including The Hobbit, which is very accessible. So if you're reading the Lord of the rings, there's a lot of people that will be the longest book they ever read. Just, just I'm just talking about the average American. Yeah. That that is actually a that's it already. That's a big step for for many, a lot of our audience will have read, obviously a lot of the great books we have, that there's people coming from different places. But if, if, if the idea of an epic poem, maybe you picked up Homer or the Aeneid and you read several pages and you're like, this is a different language. That's what this is what we've been talking about, right? For if that is the response, that's why I'd say maybe start with the Lord of the rings. Get get through it and and try to understand what token is doing there because a lot of he is doing an epic. It's like an epic primer. There we go. Yeah, exactly. and, and that is a great place to, to start. So if you're, if you're, second generation, I think there's good reasons to start with Homer well equipped in a certain context. but but you're equipped to do that. Probably because you were read Narnia and Tolkien. Lord of the rings. That's true as a kid, right? You have you have that. You have that foundation already. Narnia is a great place as well. You know, you can, wade in there, as well, even though it's not the same epic. Right? to the world that Tolkien Tolkien created is and and and to John, just as a reminder, something we touched on in the previous two, podcasts. what is epic doing? What is, what is why is this a separate dialect? it is the, the best means by which the, a culture's myth is or a mythos is, is communicated, and and by myth again, we we don't mean something that's necessarily historically not true. but rather it's, it's the, the story of a culture's inception, or or a culture, a culture's ideals, that is, incarnate, made incarnate in, in the action of the poem or the action of the story, right as the hero, conquers as well as creates a cosmos or, you know, not not out of nothing, but but establishes a cosmos, establishes an ordered way of seeing the world. Right. through the epic journey, through the epic conquest. And in in that, in that story, in that poem, in that journey of the, of the hero, what we have is the people's identity and a people's telos, like who they are and why they are. and so we see this in Tolkien, right? Even though we, we can't draw any direct straight lines to the modern era like, Aragorn. Aragorn is our great great grandfather or something like. Right, right. but but what token is doing there is telling us this is who we are as a people. This is what makes humanity humanity. Yeah. These are the kinds of, qualities and traits even seen in, in non-human figures like the elves in there. And hobbits. but we all know what it means to be a Samwise. Right? And what Tolkien is doing is saying that's honor, that's nobility, that's friendship, that's virtue. And these are the things that that make up humanity and and the kinds of qualities and characteristics that God has created us to embody. Right. And so we're being told who we are, you know, in an idealized form and what we're for, which gives us a tell us, which gives us a sense of where we go and where we where we ought to go. Right. And so reading, reading epics, this is the purpose. So go back for a refresher and listen to the first two episodes. but this is why stepping into that world is so important and why, it's something worth valuing. And if it's worth valuing, it's worth starting somewhere. And what you're saying and I totally agree, the best place to start if this is a foreign language, this is a foreign world to you. If it's daunting, and and scary and dark and, and, and you feel a little afraid and you only have a little flashlight, start with Hobbit and then Lord of the rings. And what we're talking about, this foreignness, I believe, was, and there's been people who have done this, but I believe it was fundamentally foreign to Peter Jackson, which is why he didn't know what to do with Tom Bombadil. Right. And if you read the Lord of the rings or even Frodo and Sam, if you've only watched. Right, or if you've only watched the movies right, you will say, who's Tom Bombadil? Right? Because he was completely left out. But he was an important character, right? to to talk and and, I recommend Why Cry Kiley? It has a Tom and Bob, so it's a great, companion book. But if you're reading the Lord of the rings, and you know, this, this idea that we're talking about of epic is new, you're going to encounter, it's not a poetry proper, but you're going to encounter a lot of poetry and song, especially when it gets to Tom Bomb Rail. It's like, pay attention to him. It's very easy. I remember the first time I read it, actually, I was like, what is it? What part does this play in the story? You know, it's very easy. Slow down, pay attention, enjoy it. I didn't realize there's more going on there, but even there, even with with parts that don't immediately explain themselves. I mean, that's the world we live in, right? So. So that's part of the point. That's part of the point. That's how we are. Our affections are discipled, how our minds and our imaginations are discipled. to recognize that there's mystery in this world. There, there there are things that we have no idea why they exist, what place they have in our lives. But there they are. Right. And so the the our comfort level, with Tom Bombadil, you know, as we read and as we submit ourselves to that kind of story, that comfort translates into a, a comfort with the things in this world. One, because we trusted Tolkien, that what he was doing was wise and good. which translates then into the the larger comfort of knowing that our good and gracious father watches over all things, has ordered all things to his perfect plan. Even if I don't understand it. Right. Which is the case, right? I don't understand. His ways are above our ways, his thoughts above our thoughts. Right. And so, submitting ourselves to these kinds of works, especially when, you know, like, okay, what are the ringwraiths again? Yeah. exactly how does that actually work? And why can free, you know, how does Frodo. So there's so much mystery, but that simply, equips us to handle or to be prepared for or to even enjoy the mystery that's in this world. Yeah. And that's that's the connection between literature and the world that we live in. The more, the more we drink in, the more we become comfortable with and fluent in that language. the more we're able to actually read and understand and enjoy and be, have a comfort level with the things in the world, whether we understand them or not. Yeah. And there's that world, of token. Is that what sets it? Truly is an epic. I mean, there's The Silmarillion. You made a comment about The Silmarillion the other day. I'm the it's place. So, so the first the opening part, I think it's called, like, the I knew loom delay or something like. Yes, I knew the delay and it, how it's, how Tolkien, describes the creation of the world. Yes. I think I think it's one of the most beautiful pieces of literature, ever, ever composed. And, no, it's it it happens to to tickle my fancy a little bit because it's very medieval. And he's drawing on Dante in a lot of ways, or at least the medieval world that Dante was drawing on. Right. in, in with the idea of the participation of the angels in creation. Right. but even there, even though we would say, okay, maybe if if we're trying to take this literally, it's unbiblical, right? God didn't need the angels help. even there, I think I think we might we might be, reading too much into, one kind of language with the grammar of a different kind of language, the grammar of propositional propositional right, and therefore trying to be dismissive or devaluing of of what Tolkien's doing. But granted that it's it's not strictly biblical or historical in that sense. There, what he's doing is the same thing that he's doing in the rest of the Lord rings. Right? That's not historical either. Right? But what he's communicating is something so profoundly true, so profoundly beautiful. Yeah. That it it again, it shapes our affections. It teaches us to love the Lord Jesus more, not because I've learned more about him, but because I've seen something. I've experienced something akin to who he is and what he's like. Right. And that that shapes and, enlarges my and my affection for him. Yeah. And, I guess as a, as a, a final note, I too, in case someone is not convinced, you know, this there, it's it's, beyond the soul shaping aspect of of what it is when it comes down to the person who, who wants to learn logic and wants to, be effective and concise. they're they often do that because they want to be effective. Right. And, and so, but, understanding this language, understanding its power is, is the thing that actually, moves the world. It's, it's almost an example of the, you know, the, the sword versus the pen. You know, the pen is mightier than the sword. I would, you know, there's place for the sword. There's place for logic. But the pen, the poetry, if I could make that comparison. Right. Is the poet is the most powerful thing. If you, effective people in this world are people who understand non-literal language. You understand the power of poetry, of of rhetoric and how it the the non-literal and, the aspects of human nature that poetry involves, who have mastered that. And I understand it well. And maybe this is this is fodder for another conversation. but just to briefly, introduce it here, information does not transform. It simply informs. Yeah. And and what propositional language deals with is largely information. Right. Nothing wrong with that. Not being dismissive. not being, you know, pejorative at all. it's important. It's necessary. But what, information speaks to the intellect, and you can know a whole lot of things. You can have the entire dictionary memorized and not be changed in one way, to do one thing, to have no affection shaped in any way. Right. what is it that motivates to do something? Motivates us to do something. It's our affections. It's what we want to do. What? What do you want to love? What do you want to enjoy? What do you want to experience? And what changes are affections, poetry. Right. The rhetoric. That's. That's where speeches. That's where, instruction. That's where, any, any sort of, persuasion happening. largely use. It's it's the reason why it's persuasive is because they've captured the imagination in some way. They've captured the affections in some way and and guaranteed it's not because they put up a mathematical formula. Yes. Only it maybe. Maybe there's a mathematical formula involved. But it's not that alone that is transforming and and motivating the affections. puddle glum in the, underground. yeah. The underworld, comes to mind is you're saying that the, the. It wasn't the white wedge, it was the serpentine. Right. the green lady. Yeah. was, was basically using intellect, of course, you know, there was child involved, but he was, you know, the facts were laid, in front of parallel. but, what won was his affection, the loyalty above those, and that's what shattered the the lies, right? The facts, you know, was, was affection, loyalty, love, and, and broke the spell. what was his, was his love, right? Exactly. Yeah. Well, thank you so much. I look forward to the next conversation. Yeah. Go read epic poetry, start with Tolkien, and then work backwards and work backwards. Yeah, yeah, especially if that's the first, approach you've been reading. Thank you so much for joining us.