Ep 14 - What is an Epic Poem?

In episode 14 (episode 2 of Season 2), Daniel Foucachon and Joe Carlson continue the discussion of epic poetry by defining an epic poem. 

They begin by discussing the four genres of literature based on Dr. Louise Cowan's genre theory (Epic, Tragedy, Comedy, and Lyric), and then the four elements that make up an Epic, which functions as Cosmopoesis through: 

• Expansion of Space
• Expansion of Time
• Harmony of Opposites
• Fulfillment in the Eschaton

Join the discussion! 

Transcript

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This is the of your podcast. Helping families inherit the humanities in their home. Welcome to season two, episode two, where we will be discussing among the digressive ins epic poetry. Today's episode is called what is an Epic Poem? I'm your host, Daniel Sharon, and I'm joined by our co-host Joe Carlson, the translator of Dante's Divine Comedy and author of the Dante curriculum. So, Joe, today we're going to talk about what is an epic poem. And, we're going to start that by discussing Luis Cohen's, genre theory, which divides, literature between epic tragedy, comedy and lyric. Could you walk us through those four genres? Yeah. so let's start with the other three. tragedy. following Aristotle is, is, deals with an action that is single and complete. And so its scope is is narrow, right? you think Oedipus, in the, in the, in the Theban plays where, it's it's not the full history of Thebes. It's not the backstory to Thebes. It's the story of Oedipus. and there's some flashbacks, of course, to where he was, brought up. But the action is right there over the course of a couple of days. Right. And his, coming to a realization of what he's done and his self-exile, so tragedy and and not only lies as an order to disorder. Right. So not only the, that's the tragic. Right? Exactly. So not only is it this concise, narrow, moment, but it is also a movement from flourishing to not flourishing. Yeah, right. A movement from order to disorder. comedy is we tend to think of comedy in terms of sitcoms and. Right, and slapstick and farce. Comedy is the opposite of tragedy in that it is the movement from, disorder to order. It's movement from suffering to flourishing. and, and but it's also in this narrow moment. So think of something like, Much Ado about Nothing, right? It's this concise action. It's limited in nature and scope, but it's a movement from, everybody doing their own thing and, and misunderstanding each other. And, being disrupted by, Brother John, to a moment of actual wedding and harmony and, flourishing. So there's, there's a completeness to it. There's a completeness to that action that so a comedy is, should always end. And they have lived happily ever after. Exactly, exactly. It always ends in a wedding. Yeah, it ends in a wedding. Yeah. but it. And so maybe Austin, you know, would fit into this as well, where, the the movement of the of the novel, of all of her novels is essentially comic, right? It's moving from disorder, misunderstanding, despair to flourishing wholeness, happily ever after. Right? Right. And so then, so comedy does not equal funny. No. Even though it can include it can include, well, another aspect of comedy which is, interesting tying it in with Dante because he wrote a comedy, is that, it generally speaks. So tragedy speaks at a higher register because it's, it just classically, it's been taken to be more serious. Right. So you write you write a tragedy in a higher register, more elitist tone. comedy is written for everyone. It's written in a lower register, which then includes farce. Right. I see, the demons trumpeting out their backsides as, a signal to move in an inferno. 2021. so it includes the farce because it's written in that lower register, and a register that the commoner would understand and, identify with. so that's also what makes something a comedy, as opposed to a tragedy. lyric this is a little bit, fast and loose, but I think a good starting definition would be, an interior reflection on a particular moment or thing object. right. The consideration of a flower, the consideration of, the passing of a friend. it's a it's an interior reflection or meditation. now that has that has degraded into what we today, probably know as poetry, which is just personal reflection, right on steroids. right. And and that's not healthy at all. Right. But nor is that traditionally what lyric is, right? Yeah. I, I feel like the, when we, the moderns think of poetry, that is the, like you said, a worse version of it, but that's the only part we think of. We don't even think of the epic. Right. Well, yeah, because that's all we're surrounded by, right? That's that's what poetry has become in the last 100 years. Is this, this, canvas on which to paint your your own thoughts and your own windings and your own pride? it has no real relation to anything outside of self. which is why most modern poetry could probably be abandoned wholesale. sorry, you modern poets. So, yeah. Then that leaves the epic, and we were talking a little bit last week about the idea of the, the myth and again, myth, not in terms of false story or fairy tale, but myth in terms of the power of story to shape culture, which is why, a myth can also be historically true. And, a bit of history can be mythic in its in, in quality. Right. The story of the garden, is prime example. it is history. Adam and Eve really lived, they were created by God out of the dust of the earth, and Eve out of the rib of Adam. That happened in time. You could take a camcorder back and record that, but it still has, despite its historicity or even, you know, amplified because of its historicity. It has a mythic power that has shaped our culture and cultures worldwide, since the beginning of time. You know, for the past 6000 years, this has this has been the, the way we think about ourselves. Right? Right. The that story of the garden defines who we are as people. That's the mythic quality of something. And the epic, all poetry, to some extent, is is helpful in establishing and, creating and, defining that, that mythic story. Right. And by poetry, we should we should be we should be understanding not just poetry formally or poetry proper, but imaginative literature in general. Right. Imaginative literature, the poetic mode, the mode that is opposite from the philosophic mode. Right. which opens things up a little bit. It does. And it leaves room for something like the Lord of the rings, which is absolutely, a mythic epic. Right. and and self, self-described as or identified as one by Tolkien. Right. This is the myth of the English people. he was specifically trying to identify that, and therefore it qualifies as an epic. Right? Because that's what it's doing. it's it's establishing, or it's creating a story in which a people's identity is being established at that mythic level. Right. So I think we'll get back to the the Lord of the rings part, but maybe even keeping that in mind, as you now describe. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The parts of an epic I think would be, it will be interesting to explore, not just the poetic, but also the larger imaginative literature aspect of it. So yeah. Go ahead. Yeah, yeah. So, so we've we've talked about the three, the three other forms, the three other genres. and I think a good, a good definition, coming, coming from the things that Louise Cowan wrote, she, she was a great thinker and had some real significant insights, into this, into this idea of genre, and what these four genres are doing. So this this is coming from her. Let me, let me read actually a little bit. I think this is this quote is, is, amazing in terms of what it's capturing for what the epic is. And then we can kind of talk about, the four aspects of epic, that are, that are helpful for understanding this genre. So this is, this is current poetry, imaginative literature. And it's Cowan who's putting that that phrase in parentheses showing that we're not talking just about, poetry proper, but all imaginative literature. Right. The poetic mode, which includes novels and, and the like, poetry, imaginative literature is the vehicle for giving form to the myth, bringing into consciousness where it may be contemplated and known. So how how did we how do we understand, contemplate, appreciate, consider that that mythic element of a of a culture. it's in poetry. It's in the imaginative literature of the people. That's where we look, the stories that are told, the songs that are sung, the poems that are memorized, that speak to this mythic, the mythic element of of a culture and of a society's foundation, its identity. So she goes on, unlike most folk tales or legends, a literary work of art produces in mimetic form that's, in, you know, the form that imitates real life in mimetic form, the wholeness of a people's unconscious sense of themselves, providing an image of humanity in action in a world constituted by value. So what does that mean? The poem, puts into action brings into something tangible that can be read, that sense of a person's identity, of a people's identity, in into a world that can be then evaluated, with the categories of good and evil, right and wrong. Yeah. beautiful. Ugly. true. False. Right. So then she goes on the epic in particular, in its story of a hero's conquest of disorder and establishment of a cosmos. And that's, that's the key part here. That's the key definition. that what does the epic do? It. It presents a story of a hero's conquest of disorder and establishment of a cosmos that the epic in particular, she says, has a close relationship with the mythic. And she's she's identifying here the epics, proximity to myth as opposed to tragedy, comedy and lyric epic has a special relationship with the mythic. but rather than being myth, right, the epic isn't itself identified with the myth. Epic is the literary genre that gives tangible form to this vital seed of community's life, right? The the mythic power of the story. That's the vital seed that not only portrays the epic, not only portrays a world in the making, but by looking toward final things, brings about a new order, and fulfills the implicit mythic, the implicit mythic promise. Right. So so the the, if we're talking about the mythic power of a culture, a culture's a fundamental, foundational stories. they they are teaching us who we are, why we are, and then what we're for, where we're heading. They're giving us. They're giving us a sense of who we are. Right? Right. And and, why we were made, where we are heading in terms of our, our destiny as a people, as a, as a, a as, you know, fundamentally for Christians, we would say as people, made in the image of God for the purpose of a relationship with him, but not just a relationship with him, a relationship that then leads to a proper relationship with others and with creation, that all's moving somewhere, that's all. Going someplace. It's not just a static or even a cyclical reality. It's a there's an eschaton involved. Right? There's a there's a telos involved. There's a purpose to all of this, which kind of encompasses the tragedy, comedy and lyric, but with but but also adds that, that cosmological, that eschaton aspect to it, those that's the part that's completely it kind of combines those three and then adds that. Right? It becomes the foundation in which or the, the it establishes the imaginative landscape in which the other three genres can exist. Right, right. Yeah. and that's why that's why we want to that's why we're having this season. and talking about the epic is because it's so foundational to how we shape our imaginations. faithfully according to how the world is actually, how how the world actually works, how the world was actually made. How did God create this world? what are its, its qualities and its characteristics? How do we understand it? How do we understand our place in it? The epic helps. specifically, the epic helps shape our understanding in ways that, that point to all the different aspects of this world, the aspects that maybe, in our, in our modern, natural, scientific, post Darwinian world, maybe we don't always think about, as clearly or as often as we should. so that's where, Calvin goes on and talks about four aspects of the epic. So what what makes an epic an epic? What what gives it this Cosmo possesses? What gives it this ability to create a cosmos as the hero conquers disorder and makes a world establish as a world? How is he doing that? Right, right. So the first thing that she draws attention to is the expansion of space. And so, a tragedy, a will have reference to the gods. but not often are you swept up onto Olympus right. And interact with Zeus and Hera and see what's going on behind the curtain. Right. epics drawback the Kirk, right? Epics bring you into the presence of gods. Not just talk about the gods or your need to sacrifice to the gods, or your need to appease the gods in some way. The epics present you with the gods as characters in the story. All right. The same is true, with Milton, with with the Triune God, with father, son and spirit. We are brought into the throne room in book three of Paradise Lost. and and behold, the father and the son is characters and witness their conversation. So you epics. And this, of course, is true with Dante as well. Where you are. you're brought into the Otherworld, right? You're brought in the whole. The whole landscape of the comedy is otherworldly. Right. And so what the epic does is it breaks down the barrier between this world and that world. And what it does is helps us see and understand that this world, that there really is no this and that distinction in the world, the world, the world that God made is a world permeated with the spiritual realm. The world that God made is a world in which, angels and demons and God Himself has entered into and is present with us. the only difference is we can't see that realm. But you read, you read in Scripture. in Colossians and in Ephesians six, this is the world that we live in. This is the world that we do battle in. you know, first Corinthians ten that the weapons of our, of our, of our, are not fleshly, carnal weapons. but they do have the power to tear down strongholds, right? What strongholds are returning down? Not physical ones. Right. We're tearing down spiritual strongholds. That means we exist in a spiritual world simultaneously in a physical world, which means it's the same world, right? And that's where the epic helps shape our understanding to see that it's all one world. And so this expansion of space to include the other world, to include the spiritual, to include the divine, in the epic gives a really helpful, mimetic representation of the real world we live in, which then in turn helps us see the world that we live in and know how to act in it. To know that we are living in this world where that divide isn't really a divide at all. Right. So the, to kind of talk about the five great epic poem is at least, the, you know, Mount Olympus, in the Homeric, epics in the in the end, we have, the underworld. the is a trip to the underworld in, when you have Olympus two in, in the, in the Aeneid with, the conversations between Zeus and Athena and Neptune and. Right. Yeah. Or Jupiter, I should say. And then, in Paradise Lost, we have the heaven. The scene in heaven, the if we're including this in the epic sense of of including perhaps the Lord of the rings, as we've discussed, how would that, that seems to be not so much otherworldly is and or what all of these have in common. I thought that was really interesting for you to point out. Not just otherworldly, but the integration of the world. Right. the idea that these two are connected and I think sometimes where, our modern sensibilities are weirded out by the, what to do with the gods old tales. and then we have less of a problem as Christians with Milton because of. Okay. Yeah, we believe in angels. We believe in God, and we believe these are connected. But there's that image of, this pre-Christian, idea is being communicated through, the, through the gods. It's giving us handles to actually under. Understand. Right. something about the world, even if it's, not the the Christian. Yeah, story. But part of our problem with that is our misunderstanding of mythos, right? Not understanding its place. but. Yeah. How does that, does that connect over to the Lord of the rings? Or is. Yeah, totally. so is the Lord of the rings therefore talking kind of like Dante, I suppose, about our world just through. Yeah. allegorical. Didn't he say it wasn't an allegory? Well, Lewis, Lewis said that Narnia was an allegory. Oh, correct. Yes, yes. and with Tolkien, he was asked, what is this true? And he says, one hopes or something, something to that effect, right? yeah. Who's Gandalf? Who is Sauron? Yeah. who is Saruman? These aren't human. merely human, creatures. they are, they are, you have the inner and the have the might get into the, you know, the whole, cosmology of Tolkien. you have these angelic creatures and the and and a couple different, levels of angelic creatures. So the inner are like the archangels, and then the Maya are like angels. they're both celestial beings. They come from Valinor, as Sauron being a Maya that is turned bad like Melkor was an angel that, or a, an inner that, turned bad. and, the wizards are all Mayas as well, and, you know, so you you have that world and and you read it. And for us coming to Lord of the rings, it's it's because it's the father of fantasy. we we read all of his progeny back into it. We've been made comfortable with the the fantastic. We've been made comfortable with the fantasy genre. and so we read it. No problem. Right. but he's accomplishing the same thing that the epics are doing. The epic poems are doing. He's right. He's integrating this world, the spiritual, angelic, and material physical world together into one landscape. Right. It's interesting that I think there are people would have no problem not even think twice about the Lord of the rings, and yet would still struggle with the pagan gods right in the Homeric right and, Virgil's epic, which is, but they really are accomplishing, it's doing the same thing. Yeah, yeah. They're, and and as Christians, we obviously know, the pagan gods are false gods, right? And we can label them false. and so we can label, the Iliad, we can label the Odyssey, we can label the Aeneid fiction in, in, in the truest sense, right. In the, in the sense that this did not happen. so not only is it myth, it's also it also didn't happen. Now, was there a real Troy? Sure. Was there a real Ithaca? Sure. Was there a real founding of Rome? Yes. but did, Zeus and Aries and, everyone else entered the battlefield in front of the walls of Troy and fight with or against the Achaeans? You know, we can chalk that one up to to imaginative literature. but it's still accomplishing something. It's making us. And there's a share of this world that is is both spiritual and physical. Right. And there's a there are truths in that, in the way that there are truth. There's truth in the Lord of the rings. It's saying true things, even though it's not history in that sense. Yeah. They're becoming, you know, maybe this trivializes that too much, but they're becoming puppets for, a, in terms of a representation of something that's real. Yeah. and so it helps us. It's a mimetic representation that helps us understand the real, even though we would never say that Jupiter is a real person wandering around in the world. So we only hit the first, of the four aspects of of, of, of Cosmo poses of, you know, what an epic is. But, to throw a slight curveball through a little digression here, as you were describing the element of time, The Lewis Chronicles of Narnia came to mind. And yet that's not been on my list, in my mind has, and of epic. Yeah. so I'm just going to ask you. It is. Oh, is that an epic? Tolkien would not say it was I, right? Yeah. we would talk. He'd call his own story. Would he actually has used a he may have done that, but why do you call it an epic? That's that's an excellent question. And I'd want to Tolkien scholar to come in and comment on that. I know he called it a myth. Right. you know, identify what we're calling the myth that probably using all these descriptions, but. Right, that maybe time has helped us. Right. So that I would be curious if he. So. Yeah. I mean, maybe there are elements of it. Yeah. What keeps it if we if we don't call Narnia? an epic. What is keeping what is the difference? Yeah. because there are, you know, the aspect of time is certainly there. Right. And maybe it's. And also the creation of a world, right? Yes. I think, I think and it's connection to our world. Yeah. Yeah. So there's, I was seeing up there, I think it is, I, it has elements, but in the UN on the micro, it's a micro epic. The micro epic. It's, it's it's all of these epic. It's right. It's all these things on a, on a smaller scale. Okay. you know, the, the it's not larger than life. I don't know really. In some ways. So maybe I'll. Maybe I'll punt. Yeah. my I like micro epic. Yeah. I think that that can work. Okay, well, let's get back to the, you know. Yeah, yeah. We talked about expansion of time. Yeah. or space. Sorry. Yeah. I think the second one was expansion of time. Yeah. Expansion of time is, is is the next, next element of this where, you so tragedy comedy is, narrow scope of, in terms of time. It's completed action, happening within a few days. you know, a limited scope of, of, chronology. lyric again is a very small thing, comparatively and is, really talking about, a single moment of, you know, your reflection on something, the epic is, is the other direction, entering not just the full scope of human history, but also, in, in terms of, of, in terms of what it implies in terms of the, the making of a world. You're making a, a space time continuum. You're establishing something that has, that will have future history that's implied in the poem. Right? The, the, the, of the establishment of, of the Empire in the Aeneid. Right. presupposes a history. In fact, even, it even, foretells the direct lineage of of, Octavius and son. Right. in, in projecting this history, from the standpoint of pure. You see. Nathan. Yeah. Yeah. Empire without end. Yeah. So it's it's it's going to continue. but beyond that, beyond the the the expansive, notion of, of world history, it goes into those regions of timelessness. Right? It goes into, Olympus, even though the gods are, are interacting with humans in, in real time, as it were, in human time, it's still a place where there is no time. you're going into the underworld in Odyssey, in the Aeneid, where there is no time. It's just you just is. Right? you're going into that. I mean, going back to to the comedy, the whole thing is otherworldly. The whole thing is outside of human time. And then with Milton, you're going into, the throne room, where again, you're entering into a timelessness. And one of the things that this does, the effects that this has is, is create, a very specific kind of relevance to us. If there are if there are places that are timeless, then the, the, the projection is that those same places of, of timelessness bear a similar relationship to us as it did to the characters back then. So if there is a place, if there is a throne room in which God is sitting, that doesn't change, right? That's that's a that's an endless, place fixed a fixed place in, in, in this, in this cosmos. Not in, in it materially, but, with, with relation to it, which means that there's, there's a place where I can imagine my own, my own thoughts, my own prayers, my own concerns being, being considered, you know, especially as we pray, as we pray the father through the son in the power of the spirit, we we are entering into that place of timelessness. Right. And so that gives the, the epics a particular relevance, a particular connection to us as readers. which again, going back to the nature of, of epic poetry, it's a mimetic representation of the world that we actually live in, but heightening it, to the place where we see a hero conquer disorder and establish a world, and that's, that has the mythic power to inform us, to tell us, to teach us, how to understand the world that we actually live in. And so we actually live in a world that is metaphysically expanded, right? A world that, that is more than the natural world we see. And we live in a world in which there is timelessness. right. Because there is an eternal God who exists outside of time. That is a proper description of the world that we live in. And so it even, even pagan epics then resonate with us in a way, that that is really helpful, because it's, it's expanding our own imaginative landscapes to properly understand the world in which we actually live. that's its benefit. And when you lose connection with the epics, it's what we're talking about a little bit. Last week. And when you lose connection with the epics, you lose connection with that nourishment, that helps, feed the soul, feed the mind, feed the imagination to where we can properly understand the world in which we live. and so when you're untethered from the epics, that way you lose. When a culture is untethered from the epics, it loses a sense of reality in that way. Because we don't know how to process these things. Our our imagination hasn't been trained, hasn't been shaped, hasn't been cultivated by the epics to where we understand or take for granted even that we live in a world in which, you live in a world which is permeated by the spiritual realm, live in a world which is adjacent to a realm of timelessness. Right. the epics take this for granted. We don't. Why? Because we don't read the epics, right? Just right. But we need to take those things for granted, because that's the way the world actually is, right? so the third thing then is, a re harmonization or harmonization of, of opposing forces. Cowan talks about the masculine and the feminine. but those are just, almost placeholders, referring to just opposing forces. you know, the, the force that fights, the force that nourishes the fought the force that builds the for the force that cultivates, left to left alone, these forces will dominate and destroy, either by reckless violence or by sappy smothering. Right. so if the if the masculine dominates in a way that destroys the feminine, you get destruction and death and carnage, right? if the feminine dominates and destroys the masculine, you get over nurturing suffocation. right. You can't have an imbalance of these things, right? for the for cultures to be built for civilizations to be founded and to thrive, they need a harmonic balance, a harmonious balance of these two opposing forces. Because, again, this is the world that we made. God made the world, in a way in which these two, fundamental forces are called to come together. The one is supposed to help the other. Right. And build, be fruitful. Right. Multiply, fill the earth. And you just talked about the imbalance of one versus the other. But I think that what we're facing, I wonder how unique it is or if it's been this has been, encountered before, but, it's not just a matter of balance, but a matter of mixing. So I have not watched the, Rings of Power, but I saw a recent preview of season two, which indicates that they are telling the the perspective of the orcs, and, and so they have a valid story to they have feelings. All right. It shows an orc family. I'm like, first of all, they don't have family on the ground, but, but it's not talking anyway. Yeah. Who cares? Yeah, but the. But what we have is it's not just a we used to have, I think, a question of balance. And I think that what we're in this harmony of the opposites we're now dealing with not just a question of balance, but an actual twisting of those, those actual elements. It's not the masculine versus the feminine. It's not good versus evil. It's evil. That's been, turned into sort of, well, not so evil, right? Or it has evil has feelings too, right? Right, right. Well, if you lose touch with the epic, if you lose touch with the mythic power of scripture, which the epic, points to, in, in varying degrees, you know, versus pagan versus Christian. but when you lose touch with that, you lose touch with reality. Like what? What is real? What is real in a sense of what is our opposite. So, why are we, epic poetry would allow us to understand the dichotomy between good and evil, right? In a way that I think we're losing our ability. We're seeing or families. Right. Who who have feelings, right? Instead of simply seeing an enemy to be destroyed. Right. the, so the another practical, I think anyone can understand what I just said about the twisting of these things. Right. and and yet they, we I think we often easily lament, you know. Oh, why is this or, you know, how did this happen? Yeah. and I think the point we're trying to make here is we've abandoned a sense of epic, of the epic of of identity that is given to cultures through epic poetry. Right? Yeah. And and, you know, want to be, don't want to be too, sweeping in our statements. It's not just that we've we've stopped reading the epics. I think that itself is a, a symptom of a deeper problem that we've lost touch with. who God is and and how he has made us. But our point here, right, that that's the source. If we talk about education, education is to know God and to love him. We've stopped worshiping him. We've stopped worshiping God. And these are the down, the downstream consequences, consequences and effects and what it looks like when we have right abandoned God, it will eventually start looking like, our shelves will no longer have this. Our homes are going to have this. So you're right. We don't want to, we want to balance the cause and effect. Right? Right. But one of the things that epic poetry does is it it keeps us in contact with reality, right? It keeps us in contact with the way God has actually made the world. And that's our point here, is that, the cause is a, a failure to worship God rightly and to understand him through his word. but, close to that and, and only a little bit downstream from that is a loss of, storytelling power that actually reminds us of the way, the way the world was made and shapes our imaginations to understand the way the world has made and by means of story, because that's how that's how we understand the world. We understand the world by means of story. And when we've lost scripture, a, a backup that would remind us of Scripture and point us back to straight Scripture is epic poetry, but we've lost that as well. Yeah. So, so yeah, that would be the third one. The third aspect of epic poetry, the harmonization of these forces, and, the fourth and final one that Cohen points to. And, and, you know, this is an open discussion. but these are, I think are really helpful. points that that start the discussion, and frame the discussion. The fourth is the presence of an eschaton in which all things are fulfilled. Right? This is moving someplace. There's a tell us to the world. it's not like we said, just a matter of minutes ago. It's not a static reality. It's not a cyclical reality. There's movement. There's there's, a progression toward not progress for the sake of progress, but there is a progression toward an end. Right. you know, Christ and tell us is a word that I think many of our listeners will understand, but that's an Aristotelian term. Telos is the end. The purpose, of of a of a thing, of an object, of, of a being. Yeah. it is what they are made for. So. That's right. Tell us. Right, right. and so, so Christ, in telling the history of the world, is bringing it to a place of fulfillment and joy and life and beauty, where all sin will be wiped away, where all pain will be wiped away and done away with where evil will be completely eradicated and and thrown into the lake of fire. and wholeness and joy and peace will reign forevermore. Right? That is the Christian eschaton. That's that's, what the word reveals to us. That's where we're going. And what what epics help us do. again, been saying this a couple times now. it keeps us in touch with that reality. it gives us, imaginative, handles to grab hold of this reality. And not just that it is happening, but that we partake in that happening. God is using us. That you will he will crush the head of Satan under your feet. Romans 1620. we are taking part in tearing down the strongholds, right? We are. We are doing something. We are, heroes. making conquest over disorder and establishing a cosmos, right? We, Christ through us, through his church is establishing the kingdom. Thy kingdom come here on earth. It's happening now. There's an ultimate, eschaton in which, this world is being reshaped and and resurrected. and and the new earth and the new heavens will will reign without sin. But even this world, there's a there's a progression toward obedience. There's a progression toward the establishment of something real. And, that's happening through our obedience, through our conquest of the disorder in our own hearts as we put to death the deeds of the flesh, mortify the flesh, put off and put on, following in obedience and faith, walking with the spirit. There's something being built through that effort in this world. So the presence of a hero. Yeah, in all of these. And of course, now these are often flawed heroes, but they are moving from disorder to order. Right. you know, I, I, now, I think that would be why you say Paradise Regained is important, right? Because. Because you only see a descent right in Paradise. And if you don't have regained, you don't recognize that the true hero of Paradise Lost is Christ. Christ is the hero. Christ is the one who comes to redeem Christ. It's not. It's not Adam. No, it's not Adam. And it's certainly not Satan. Right, right, right. they they are, primary characters, but the main character, the heroes. Christ who will come down, Milton says, his, something to the effect of his glory shall now be the theme of my song. as as the son willingly, takes the mantle of of incarnation and redemption, sacrifice, resurrection, future, glory. And then that's foreshadowed, in very swift motion in books 11 and 12 as the as the story of the seed develops from from Cain and Abel and Seth all the way through the, the the, the actual eschaton of the church, in the in the resurrection, the whole of redemptive history is laid out, by Michael envision form and in and in spoken form. But it's left still the Paradise Lost is is still left with Satan having the upper hand in sin and death reigning in the world. so if you leave it there, you don't have the real sense of victory, right? Which is why you need to read regained because there Satan falls for the last time before Christ, the Lord his God. and the establishment of Christ as the true authority in this world. The second Adam, the one who, reigns, the man who succeeds, the man who obeys, and establishes himself as the hero of this, of these two poems together. So Dante, the hero is the pilgrim. The pilgrim is overcoming, disorder. Right? through through repentance and faith in Christ. Yeah. That one. Okay. That one feels pretty clear. and the the, the Indian, the Aeneid is obviously Virgil. Right. you see that, the Iliad, feel. Yeah, yeah. Is it Achilles? So. And does he improved? Well, this is what's interesting. So, sometimes the, the epics are speaking, directly, and then sometimes they're speaking by suggestion. And I think, I think one of the most important scenes in the Iliad is the scene between Achilles and Priam, at the end and the giving of Hector's body. And there you have and I think this this is what Homer's doing. He's saying the the, the ethos of the ancient world, which was all about war and conquer, the conquering of other nations, fight, display, healing others. That ethos, leads to just more of the same, right? It just leads to destruction. what is needed to be. And this comes into the balancing of, of opposites. What's needed is a sense of harmony and mutual understanding. not in a sappy hallmark way, but to to come around and recognize that there is a higher good than war. Right. The higher good is, love of mankind. Love of another. So, in in 23, you have, Priam come and, and they have this incredible moment together where they lay down their arms, they sit by side by side, and they weep for those they have lost. Right. Achilles weeps for Patroclus. Priam weeps for Hector. Right. And in that moment, you have this realization that war destroyed something beautiful and good, right? Our anger destroyed something beautiful and good. Achilles. Right? Right, right. My pride, my refusal, to to lay down wrath has has had a consequence that I'm not sure I like. And so the end of the Iliad, you're left with the suggestion that that maybe there's maybe there's a higher good and that the higher good is friendship, or something akin to that. Right. So the opening lines to sing goddess, the anger of Peleus and son Achilles is fulfilled through that 2023, where he's realizing his anger is, is essentially, I don't know about satiate is the right way, but, resolved. Yeah, his his anger is resolved. but even more potently, his anger, I think, is seen to be, not the best thing. Right, right. Not the way to go about it. There's there's a realization that my anger has led to the death of someone I cared for, the death of someone I loved. And I can I can stop. And in a moment of of peace and sympathy and identification, I can sit with my mortal enemy, the father of the man I slew. Who's who? And I am his mortal enemy for sure. Right. because I've slain many of his sons. I can sit with him and we can mourn together and have this really human moment in which we, our our sorrowful right over the things that we have lost. And we can join in each other's sorrow and we can identify with each other in this way. Now, it doesn't last very long. Priam has to sneak out of camp. but I think, Homer is is pointing by way of suggestion, right? To an order. that actually lasts. Right. that and that's that's the the the conquering of a disorder. The disorder would be wrath, a war. the order would be friendship and, love and peace. Yeah, yeah. So, the Odyssey, it's a yeah, it's a coming home. Right? Establishing order in in very tangible ways. Cleaning house. Yeah. just we're we're running out of time here a little bit, but, the, for if we're going to include the Lord of the rings in this, in this, the, who is the the, the main character there. I mean, I've, I've seen debate about this. Well, yeah. Frodo. Is it Sam? Yeah. Seen that suggested. Yeah. is it Eric or, er. It's true. Yeah, yeah. So the we've talked about how there's, there's a, a connection, a cosmic, an idea of cosmos that is, runs between Milton and the Lord of the rings a little almost more than the other epics. that there's definitely that Cosmo, cosmology, world creation. Making of a cosmos. making a cosmos in Lewis. I'm sorry. Tolkien. I want this to the microwave. Yeah. that. And then in Milton that we the. It's almost assumed it's in medias res. Perhaps you might say, jumping in the middle of it, something that exists versus the, the creation or it's not really literally about it. tell me about how the Lord of the rings fits into this aspect of epic. The disordered order. Yeah. Disordered order. the. You know who the, what the eschaton is, perhaps. Yeah, yeah. What is the eschaton in the Lord of the rings? And then. And then who is the hero? Yeah, well, I'm not sure. you have two minutes. Yeah. ordered to disorder. I mean, disordered order is, is obviously the destruction of the ring, right? You're destroying the disorder, right? you are bringing order, through the destruction of the the force behind all of the disorder in in the cosmos. and and so then is is Frodo the, the the hero is Sam. The hero is Aragorn the hero? Yes. Okay, that's all I to say about that. but then the eschaton is the age of men, right? and and obviously, that's not a final eschaton. That's not the the final, final, resting place. but from the perspective of the story, it's the age of men in which peace, reigns. the king has returned. and obviously there are Second coming, resonances with that. Right? so Aragorn is a Christ figure who comes, who comes back from the dead, as it were, and establishes a reign of peace on earth. and so from that perspective, Aragorn, you know, gets his points for, consideration of of hero. but that's the eschaton. Is is this, the reestablishment of Gondor and the the diminishment of the elves, the diminishment of the old world and the harmony that's brought between all the peoples? Yeah, there's a few areas I'd love to go there, but I'm afraid it would be it go into, I will refrain from jumping into more there because it would be another hour. Yeah, yeah. well, I, I think that, concludes that this, this episode, we the what we'd like to talk about next episode is what to do with an epic. and so, one short answer is you read it. Yes. There you go. Well, hear you read it. And I was going to say, as we progress through this season, we would like to include, in these, in these podcasts, some tapes of the actual epics we want to be actually read, some of the epics in the hope that you will leave and pick up these epics for yourself and read them. thank you so much for joining us. And, tune in next time for the, continuation of the discussion of epic poetry. Thanks so much. Thank you.